I will start this post by saying this: If you didn't finish the book, come back later. Ok, now with that out of the way...
The Deathly Hallows was a pretty good book. I was satisfied by the story and thought it brought a decent close to the Harry Potter series. I particularly liked the descent into Gringotts, and the clever traps awaiting Harry in the Lastrange vault. I enjoyed the quest into the Ministry of Magic, too, imagining how the elevator scene would play out in movie format -- something akin to a Keystone Cops flick. I suppose that I could generalize and say that the key stand-alone adventures in the book were all very satisfying.
The downside of the book has mostly to do with the book construction. The camping scenes were meant to seem long and solitary for the group of Harry, Ron, and Hermione, but the book really drew out in those areas. I think some editing could have reduced those significantly. But my main gripe with the book is that the "fight scenes" were often not comprehensible. Here's where I hope you other Harry Potter readers can help me out.
I think I may have finally figured out the end, after re-reading pages 742-743 five times.In the Half Blood Prince, Draco Malfoy is supposed to kill Dumbledore. Because Dumbledore had the Elder Wand, and Draco is supposed to be killing him, Draco became the Elder Wand's new master. Draco didn't take the wand, however, and so Dumbledore was buried with the wand, even though Draco was the wand's master.
Voldemort dugs up Dumbledore's body and snatches the wand, but he's not the wand's master because he didn't take it from Dumbledore himself. As a result, he can't use the full power of the wand. He thinks that because Snape killed Dumbledore that killing Snape will grant him access to the wand's power, which is why Voldemort kills Snape. But that doesn't work out because Draco Malfoy is the wand's true master.
Harry unknowingly snatches Draco's wand during the Deathly Hallows, making him the Elder Wand's master. This point is unclear to me because Harry doesn't actually steal the Elder Wand, he steals Draco's original wand. But whatever. As a result, the Elder Wand that Voldemort wields will not attack its master (which is the explanation for why the dual-core wand Voldemort shared with Harry would not harm Harry when Voldemort used it) and so when Voldemort tries to attack Harry in the end with Avada Cadavera, the spell reflects off of Harry, the wand's true master, and fries Voldemort. At the same time, Harry's simple expelliarmus allows Harry to gain control over the Elder Wand, catching it as it flies through the air.
Seriously, I had to re-read those pages more than five times to figure all of that out. This was the most frustrating part of reading this book -- the action sequences were not very clear. And even after all that, I'm still not sure that what I know is correct.
I still don't understand entirely why Harry didn't die in the forest when he presents himself to Voldemort. I don't know what was happening when he was chatting with Dumbledore in the train station. Was he dead? Almost dead? Not nearly dead? To blave? Shove a chocolate-coated nut in his mouth and drag him off to free the princess.
I found that in describing many scenes where there was fighting, characters would slip out of my mental view, to appear later in places that they shouldn't have been. I find it hard to come up with examples from the melee, but it left me with the feeling that I had perhaps turned an extra page and missed a significant part of the action when I know that I had not. Maybe one example is when Hagrid got carried off by spiders. I was quite sure he was a casualty in that battle.
Unfortunately, while Rowling is an excellent storyteller, I think it's her skill as an author that is stretched here by not having experience at penning detailed fight scenes. Or perhaps the blame rests in the editing? I suppose that it's worth another read to really see if this comment holds holds up. It's entirely possible that with the imperative of getting to the end that I went a bit too fast through scenes that required more detailed reading.
Another curious facet is the Deathly Hallows. Did I miss something? Were they ever employed? Harry dropped the stone before he gained control of the wand. So we never saw the three hallows used to control death. Didn't you expect that to happen? It's the book's title, after all.
Speaking of death, oh my, the death toll in this book. Holy cow. Let's see: Hedwig, Mad-Eye, Dobby, Lupin, Tonks, Fred. Am I missing someone? I had counted seven by the time I was done. At least, seven white-hat characters whose names would be recognizable. Then count in Snape and Voldemort (both of whom you knew were coming, sure) and yeah, that's a lot of finality.
The last little bit of the book was fun, including the children of the children. There's no way the franchise can end now, being that it's such a money-maker. Of course, they've got movies coming out through 2010, and probably after a hiatus a new book will surface with an all-new set of kids. One-shot books detailing the adventures of other Hogwarts students might even be entertaining.
I can only assume that Hogwarts: The Animated Series will be forthcoming.
"Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and under-stood ..." Draco disarmed DD but was not able to get the elder wand. Without knowing what kind of wand it is nor what powers it posses, Draco was not interested with the wand but on the task -- kill DD. I think it is safe to assume that the elder wand was found by someone from hogwarts near DD's body. They decided to place it in the tomb basically because it belongs to DD.
the wand was barried with dumbledore because i think draco dropped the wand when the deathj eaters are runing away
I really need to go back and read the last 3 books again but still wanted to throw this question out there. How does the Elder wand get into the grave with Dumbledore? I know that Draco disarms DD but I don't remember if it was ever clear how that happened.
snape wasnt killed by the killing curse, nagini bit him in the neck if i remember correctly
I think that it would be very nice if you had spelled the killing curse right. It is speeled Avada Kadavra not Avada Cadavra. And ofcourse after reading the book three times I still had to find a website to explain it to me.
Oops I forgot to say how could Snape have given Harry the memory if the killing curse kills you on the spot. That part kind of defeats the purpose as the instant killing curse.
Let's go over it one more time:
1) Draco is responsible for taking wand from DD before he dies, so he becomes the new master of the Elder Wand.
2) Snape kills DD with his own wand - not the Elder Wand.
3) Harry defeats Draco in battle, so allegiance of Elder Wand shifts to him. "Defeating the Master" is the key phrase. I don't think you have to defeat the Elder Wand - just the master of the wand - to get it's allegiance. (If I'm wrong, let me know)
4) Elder Wand cannot harm it's master.
5) Voldemort steals Elder Wand - never realizing that Harry is now the master. As such, he can never kill Harry with that wand.
Later, in the forest:
6) We find out Harry is Horocrux. But, is it Harry, or Lily's protecting spell that's the real Horocrux? (Not evidentally clear). Personally, I think it's Lily's protecting spell.
7) The protecting spell may be gone from Harry, because he turned 17. However, Voldemort inherited spell himself when he took Harry's blood in Goblet of Fire. So, Harry still has protection from the spell - ironically, from his "blood" connection to Voldemort.
8) In the forest, Voldemort tries to kill Harry with Elder Wand. But, wand can't harm his master, so it reflects back and hits Voldemort. (Remember, when Harry comes back from King's Cross confab with DD, Voldemort is being helped to his feet also.)
9) Why didn't Voldemort die when Elder Wand reflected death spell back to him in the forest? Because of Lily's protecting spell, which he inherited. But, when the killing curse hit him, it destroyed the last horocrux - Lily's protecting spell. (At this point, I believe both Harry and Voldemort were succestable to be killed - they just didn't know it)
Big fight back at Hogwarts, then:
10) Voldemort tries killing spell on Harry again - using the Elder Wand again! Same result - it backfires back at him (Harry's still the master of the wand)! And, this time, without Lily's Horocrux to protect him, he's killed.
That's how I make sense of it. Voldemort killed Snape sensing that Snape had the real Elder Wand, since he was the one that actually killed DD. He never realized that Draco had it. In fact, if you reread book 6, you almost get the impression that DD LET Draco disarm him, before Snape made the final blow. He WANTED Draco to end up with the Elder Wand, probably because he knew Draco would never realize what he had.
does anyone know a good place to discuss harry potter that isnt fool of losers and is up to date no offense to you guys its just slow response here
wow it seems like none of you read the book at all
no i dont gety what ur saying but ok harry ends up with the wand being his because the wand chose draco ok but the harry stole dracos wand and chose him remember ib the whole book JK said the wand chooses the wizard and that wands think for themselves
I'm guessing that since Harry's blood was in Voldemort that Harry couldn't die as long as Voldemort was alive. When Voldemort hit him with the death spell it killed the only thing it could, which was the part of Voldemort living inside of Harry. But the "Harry" in Harry lived.
But that makes me wonder what would have happened if someone else had killed Harry. Would he end up at King's Cross (or a similar place) with the option of returning to life?
well the thing is John, wherever you may go there will always be one... no offense.
ok when i said losers i wasnt refering to you guys i was refering to other sites none of you guys seem like losers you seem like normal people
For the last time, Draco was the previous master of the wand, but never had it... it was in DD's grave. And i'm not questioning the allegiance to V, I know there was none. Does anyone understand what i'm saying?!!!
i really enjoyed reading what happened to the character's after the book...thanks.
I am currently rereading the series and in the second book DD mentions to harry the james potter had saved snapes life b4. i cant remember this happening so can someone fill me in, even tho i will prob read about it later in the series.
do u think jk will come out w/ further harry potter books?
if so, do u think that it is a good idea?
yea...i do think there is a lack of sites with proper discussion, and as for the lack of speed to respond...maybe people actually have lives to be getting on with and dont spend their wholes lives on the internet on discussion sites...i.e they have friends to talk to aswell!
But dawn must be getting rather frustrated as i see now how ur question isnt being answered!...well, as the power of the wand gets passed to the next person (when its origonal owner is killed or defaeted) harry was the true owner(from draco defeating DD then harry defeating Draco) as we all realise...but i the power doesnt go to draco's wand aswell...i think the only reson there was clash is because someone was trying to use the wand against its true owner..therefore the wand was actually in the duel...in any other circumstance harry wouldnt have its power!...things any clearer dawn?
:-)
and i dont know what exactly sam means by his/her comment...but id like to talk to him/her as i have certainly read the book and fully understand it!...i will not be insulted like that!!!...you ignorant fool!
ok fry voldemorts curse hit himself because he used the elder wand which recognizes harry as its master bec ause hwe disarmed raco who disarmed dumbledore so the wand would not do a curse that would kill itsmaster for sure because according to olivander there are still many things unknown about wands so maybe the wand knew that it wouldnt kill harry the first time so basically it hit voldemort because harry is the masters wand
DAwn the reason the elder wand was dracos the harrys was because draco was the last to have the elder wand so he was the master of the wand then when harry stole the wand that defeated the elder harry became the true owner of the elder so the elder wand hand no allegiance to voldemoprt and does anyone think jk will continue to write books about wizards if so i think she should do them in the past or in a foreign school like durmstrang
LittleHermione - that's my whole point, after defeating DD Draco becomes the rightful Master of the Elder wand, right? BUT he doesn't actually have it as DD gets burried with it. Therefore, how on earth does Harry end up with the Elder wand simply by taking Draco's wand, which isn't the Elder wand? It remained in DD's grave until V took it, except he got no power out of it as he wasn't the Master of the wand. Amy says above, "the wand will only work its special powers for the person who defeated the last owner when they are using the actual wand", and Harry isn't, is he? He's using Draco's. Which is why I asked the question, does the power of the Elder wand get transmitted to the wand of the wizard it considers it's true owner? And yes, i've read the books thank you.
In response to John, yes, I definitely feel like something has died when I finished reading the last volume of HP. I never took so much time to read one of the 7 books, I just didn't want it to end. Made it last as long as was humanly possible, which is hard considering you want to devour the thing.
In comparison I know everything I will read now will seem tastless, for a while at least, until I get over it. But i'm definitely going to read the Deathly Hallows again cause it's so rich in details I want to be sure I get everything right.
By the way, for those who may be interested, found this on Wikipedia:
"In an interview and online chat, Rowling gave additional information on the futures of the main characters that she chose not to include in the epilogue of the book.
- Harry becomes an Auror for the Ministry of Magic, and is later appointed head of the department.
- Harry owns Sirius's motorcycle, which Arthur Weasley repaired for him. Because Voldemort's soul fragment inside him was destroyed, Harry can no longer speak Parseltongue.
- Ron works for a time with George at his store, Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes, and eventually becomes an Auror.
- Hermione initially works for the Ministry of Magic in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, greatly improving life for house-elves and their ilk. She later moves to the Department of Magical Law Enforcement and assists in eradicating oppressive, pro-pureblood laws. She also finds her parents in Australia and removes the memory modification charm she put on them.
- Luna Lovegood searches the world for odd and unique creatures. She eventually marries Rolf, the grandson of the famed naturalist, Newt Scamander.[7]
- Ginny Weasley plays for the Holyhead Harpies Quidditch team for a time, then leaves her athletic career behind for marriage and family with Harry. She eventually becomes the lead Quidditch correspondent for the Daily Prophet.
- George Weasley runs his successful joke shop, helped by Ron. He names his first child Fred, after his late twin brother.
- Slytherin House has become more diluted and is no longer the pureblood bastion it once was. Nevertheless, its dark reputation lingers.
- Voldemort's jinx on the Defence Against the Dark Arts (DADA) position is broken with his death, and there is a permanent DADA teacher.
- Firenze is welcomed back into his herd, who acknowledge that his pro-human leanings were not shameful, but honourable.
- Kingsley Shacklebolt becomes the Minister for Magic, with Percy Weasley working under him as a high official.
- As part of the changes introduced by Kingsley Shacklebolt, Azkaban no longer uses Dementors. As a result, the world is now a "much sunnier place".
- Dolores Umbridge is arrested, interrogated, and imprisoned for crimes against Muggle-borns.
- The Quibbler has returned to its usual condition of "advanced lunacy", and is appreciated for its unintentional humour.
- A portrait of Snape was not in the headmaster's office as he abandoned his post before dying. Harry intends to fight the absence of Snape's portrait, and reveals to all Snape's true allegiance.".
i don't understand how harry killed voldermort. potter's expelliamus spell COLLIDED with the killing curse yet it STILL SOMEHOW hit voldermort. how?
Last part of Chapter 32 - The Elder Wand:
The silvery blue substance is Snape's memory. Harry knew what it was so he brought the flask with Snape's memory into the headmaster's office so he can view it using the pensieve.
In Chapter 33 - The Prince's Tale:
In the pensieve, there was a part wherein Dumbledore and Snape were discussing when to tell Harry that he is a horcrux. To quote Chapter 33 - The Prince's Tale:
This is the time when Harry reasized that he should sacrifice himself in order to defeat Voldemort. Quoting from Chapter 34 - The Forest Again:
He also realized that he had to destroy all horcuxes before meeting Voldemort.
At this point, Harry knew that while Nagini lives, Voldemort will not die. But at least even if he died, there will be only 1 remaining horcrux and it will be easier for somebody else to kill Nagini then Voldemort. He thought also that is why Dumbledore wanted him to tell Ron and Hermoine so that when Harry die before all horcruxes are destroyed, somebody else will do the job. To quote from the same chapter:
Then on his way to the forest, Harry decided to tell Neville to kill Nagini so that in case he died, There will still be 3 people who knows what to do.
do any of u feel like a part of died like partwhen the book came out because there may never be another harry potter book written by jk and do any of u think there will be a new book series by jk i kinda do i think it should be about lupins son teddy because it gives u the harry potter feel because both of his parents died
yea i amy i noticed as weel how well JK connects everything very well after rereading the entire series but i think it was ot on purpose because that would have made great drama in the story for the for the people who did not make the connection so i think she did not realize or else she would have had harry realize it as well but i would not be surprised if she made the connection on purpose because of how well she did with not changing the story and remembering everythung that happened previously
Yea, i think most people are right about things like the 'whimpering creature' the part of voldemort that was inside harry...and i think as they were in limbo (between death or whatever) the part of voldemort (whimpering creature) would have 'gone on' as dumbledore puts it...but harry had the choice at that point!...whereas the part of voldemort didnt!
About the wands alegiences...physical ownership of the wand doesnt matter...but that doesnt mean that the 'true owner' has the power without the wand ans has special powers with their odrinary wand...they still need to USE the elder wand to experience the special power! This is where Dawn(24) is confused i think, because it just means that the wand will only work its special powers for the person who defeated the last owner when they are using the actual wand...not special powers for them in general no matter what wand they use.
Also i think it seems harry had a few protections in the forest...firstly his blood remaining in voldemort, and secondly his 'mastering' of death...he techinically was the true owner of the hallows as not only did he have them, but as dumbledore explained he got them in the right means which is the thing that enabled him to actually be the master. And voldemort didnt die because harry didnt defend himself...the only reson he died after that in hogwarts it because harry did expeliarmus and in some magical power due to the whole thing with harry neing the true elder wand owner this made voldemorts own killing curse backfire...thats why he died. When exactly harry 'mastered death' i think is slightly unclear...but i think it must have been after he released the stone from the snitch as this was at the point when he has decided he was ok with dieing and facing death (which in effect IS mastering death).
In response to John(21) i had also noted how harry and voldemort were distantly reltaed, but i think this is by no mean a mistake or unrealised by JK at all!...everything is so well planned and thoughtout...even bits of the story line/plot and characters we dont even know about. I think that as mentioned before in the book...all the pure blood wizards are related and there are many connections like this throughout not nessecarily meaning anything significant.
Also i think it is obvious about the sword like alexhugo says that the hat just enables you to pull usefull objects out in time of need (like in chamber of secrets) and nevile did just as harry did, this is a world of magic after all...makes sence...noone complained in chamber of secrets.
In answer to the whole 'it has a 'scooby-doo' like feeling'...well yea, thats what makes a story!...things happening then you finding out after!its not just scooby-doo...its lots of books and storys...its what makes it exciting! If you knew everything from the very begginning it would be that interesting to read on! Also i think that JK leaving a lot for the reader to work out is good, it means you have to use your brain, and also leaves some things up to you to choose what you think like many great storys do!...because a lot of things are down to personal belief and views (like what you really make of the whole kings croos scene).
Lastly in response to Zac(25)...er have you actually read the book???...because nevile kills nagini after they come out of the forest...its hard to miss. And nagini WAS a horcrux!...aswell as harry who was the eighth MISTAKE (voldemort didnt mean to make) of a horcrux which made voldemort disembodied for all that time after he tryed to kill harry!...and you would know how hes the horcrux and how voldemort dies if you read the book!
Thats how i see it all!...but i do think that when harry and voldemort were talking in hogwarts just before they duel you would have thought harry would be a bit more confident about the fact that he couldnt die due to his mothers protection and him 'mastering death', i dont think this is shown or put across at all...am i mistaken?...couls harry have died in any way or something?...would like to hear from people on this!
Read carefully, Harry is the last Horcrux and not Nagini. Voldemort didn't know that a part of his soul went to Harry when his Killing curse rebounded while Lily died trying to protect Harry. He thought Nagini was his last Horcrux and so he had to protect it at all cost. And Draco's wand didn't become the Elder wands, it's still the one that DD had which Voldemort stole from his grave... Draco just became the rightful owner because he was the one who disarmed DD. And like what Ollivander said the rightful owner is the one who defeats the previous owner, most of the time...but remember also "the wand chooses its owner"... Have you been reading the books???
What happened with the Nagini. I thought the snake was the last horcrux. Harry explicitly tells neville to kill the snake. A friend of mine responded to this by saying that Harry was the last Horcrux. But than why did Voldemort put so much effort in protecting Nagini? And if Harry was the last Horcrux how could he kill Voldemort without actually dying himself?
Harry Potter 8???
I still don't get how Draco's wand became the Elder wand since, even though Draco disarmed DD, the actual 'stick' remained with DD in his grave. I understand that Draco is now the new master of the wand, but he doesn't physically have it. Either we have to assume the power of the Elder wand can 'travel' to another wand or there's a piece missing here for me.
I think the Death Hallows was ok but i dont think it was a good way to end the series. I meen out of know where these magical items come but it hough the book would be about hunting the Horcruxes which where way to easy to find. The fighting scenes could have been beter like how did lupin and Tonks die
Harry didn't die because Voldemort, in order to regenerate his body,used Harry's blood. When Lily's protection ended inside of Harry when he turned 17, the protection did not fully die out because Voldemort's blood still contained Lily's protection. Not knowing this, seeing a show Voldemort disregarded love as garbage, he used the Killing Curse on Harry. With Lily's protection still working on Harry due to Harry's blood running through Voldemort's veins, the Killing Curse did not work at killing Harry and his soul, but it did kill the bit of Voldemort's soul that was inside of Harry.
Yes Amy.
o amy sorry but im bored as hell right now and all my friends are out of town so i have nothin to do and when i said losers i wasnt refering to you guys i was refering to other sites
see k the thing is we dont know if the same thing happened to voldemort as harry him going into another dimension or whatever it was so they were both protected by each other
ok u guys are also missing something ok when harry finds out that his dad has the invisibility cloak from the perevels because he is a great great great etc. grandson of the perevels(james is as well as harry) but if you remember in the half blood prince marvolo gaunt has the ring with the resurection stone because he is a decedent of the perevels so therefore harry is a distant cousin of voldemort because voldemort is the son of marvolos daughter so this i think is an unitentinal connection that rowling made because i am the first person i know of to make this connection but i only made this connection after rereading the whole series.
I think the killing curse hit Harry. Looking back at Chapter 35 - The King's Cross:
--He failed to kill you with my wand,” Dumbledore corrected Harry. “I think
we can agree you are not dead—though, of course,” he added, as if fearing he
had been discourteous, “I do not minimize your sufferings, which I am sure were severe.”--
Harry was hurt when he was hit by the curse but the curse failed to kill him.
Why did the curse failed to kill Harry?
Still on Chapter 35 - The King's Cross:
--He took my blood.” said Harry.
“Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living
body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you!
He tethered you to life while he lives!”--
Harry did not die because Lily's protection lives inside Harry and Voldemort. While Voldemort lives, Harry cannot die.
Although the killing curse did not kill Harry, it destroyed the horcrux, the peice of Voldemort's soul inside Harry. To quote from the same chapter:
--So the part of his soul that was in me . . . ”
Dumbledore nodded still more enthusiastically, urging Harry onward, a
broad smile of encouragement on his face.
“. . . has it gone?”
“Oh yes!” said Dumbledore. “Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is whole, and
completely your own, Harry.”--
Harry's scarifice was not the same as lily's sacrifice.
Harry's sacrifice was more of a proposition that voldemort forced upon him.
Harry had to hand himself over or let the Death Eaters continue their attacks upon the castle.
so he was sacrificing himself to save his friend's but not o cast a magical protection upon them like lily's did
yea thats basically what happened
Kevin (45):
"9) Why didn't Voldemort die when Elder Wand reflected death spell back to him in the forest? Because of Lily's protecting spell, which he inherited. But, when the killing curse hit him, it destroyed the last horocrux - Lily's protecting spell. (At this point, I believe both Harry and Voldemort were succestable to be killed - they just didn't know it)"
Umm... no, Voldemort couldn't have been killed yet (and I think neither would Harry 'cause V still lives with a bit of his blood in him). Besides you're forgetting the one remaining Horcrux at this point: Nagini. And how could Lily's protecting spell be a Horcrux anyway? How could you put a piece of a soul in a spell?
I don't think it (the protective spell) could even be destroyed by a killing curse (or any other for that matter), when you still have the blood flowing in his veins.
Thanks for the info Carlo. I meant to put doe in the text. Thanks again.
reply to lulu above
i think it the whimpering child is voldemorts soul stripped from harry
this is just a guess
so please comment further to help me out
DD explained why Harry was not killed. Part of Lily's enchantment lived on VD's body, since he took Harry's blood, so as the book says " I (Harry) live while he (VD)lives
The whimpering creature (never referred to a child) is explained by Harry in the final battle with VD. He adviced VD to try some regret, because he "saw what VD became if he didn't
Here are some comments JK Rowling made in chat; they may be helpful to you.
lborz: What does it mean to be the master of death
J.K. Rowling: As Dumbledore explains, the real master of Death accepts that he must die, and that there are much worse things in the world of the living. It is not about striving for immortality, but about accepting mortality.
Rosi: What does in essence divided mean?
J.K. Rowling: Dumbledore suspected that the snake's essence was divided - that it contained part of Voldemort's soul, and that was why it was so very adept at doing his bidding.
This also explained why Harry, the last and unintended Horcrux, could see so clearly through the snake's eyes, just as he regularly sees through Voldemort's eyes. Dumbledore is thinking aloud here, edging towards the truth with the help of the Pensieve.
Angela Morrissey: Were there seven horcruxes not six as dumbledore intimated to harry if so, does this mean that voldemort had an 8 part soul not a 7
J.K. Rowling: Yes, Voldemort accidentally broke his soul into eight parts, not seven.
Katie B: Why was kings cross the place harry went to when he died
J.K. Rowling: For many reasons. The name works rather well, and it has been established in the books as the gateway between two worlds, and Harry would associate it with moving on between two worlds (don't forget that it is Harry's image we see, not necessarily what is really there.
Elisabeth: In the chapter of kings cross, are they behind the veil or in some world between the real world and the veil?
J.K. Rowling: You can make up your own mind on this, but I think that Harry entered a kind of limbo between life and death.
Jon: Since voldemort was afraid of death, did he choose to be a ghost if so where does he haunt or is this not possible due to his horcruxes
J.K. Rowling: No, he is not a ghost. He is forced to exist in the stunted form we witnessed in King's Cross.
I do have a question, though
Why did Harry's sacrifice protect overaged wizards (his mother's charm broke when he turned 17)?
harry was given the choice to live or die when he was hit with avada kadavra and weant tpo kings cross and the elder wand did affect voldemort because as harry regains conciossness he hears bellatrix asking him if he needs help getting up
Specifically, Draco is the master of the Elder Wand because he was the one that disarmed Dumbledore, thus he has ownership over the wand.
He's still alive because his blood is in Voldemort, and thus he's technically still alive, just in Voldemort. Or something like that. The train station thing reminds me of the in-between world place in the Matrix trilogy.
Now I'm off to read the book... ;)
In response to Kevin's Post.
Okay, but I still don't understand. If the elder wand couldn't kill Harry in the forest and instead backfired and hit Voldemort with the killing curse (however not killing him because of Lily's protection) what happened to Harry? He couldn't have just randomly collapsed. The elder wand had to have hit him with Avada Kadavra. Arg! I don't understand!!!
In disarming Dumbledoore Malfoy bested him in single combat, thus making him the wand's master. The fact Snape delivered the killing blow was inconsequential, as Dumbledoore had arranged for Snape to kill him previously, and he wasn't armed at the time. When Harry bested Malfoy at the Malfoy residence by taking his wand, the wand's allegiance switched again. Thus, Harry is the Elder Wand's master.
I don't think Harry was dead when he went to the King's Cross station. He certainly had a CHOICE to die, but he chose not to. Voldemort's curse didn't kill him because of a combination of his ritual in Goblet of Fire, when he took in Harry's blood (as the love magic that Lily cast to protect Harry was still in effect via Voldemort, Harry could never truly die at Voldemort's hands) and the fact Harry was a horcrux - in casting Avada Kedrava on Harry, Voldemort only managed to kill the horcrux inside Harry.
As for the Deathly Hallows, you overlook that up to the point of his unveiling to Voldemort in the forest, he WAS the true owner of all three Hallows, and I think instead of making him immortal as Voldemort did via use as Horcruxes, it instead gave him the courage to face his own death, face on, mastering death via his acceptance of it. Of course, that's all speculation, but it makes sense in that's how Harry would master death - with no desire for immortality, the only thing for him to master about it would be his fear of death.
The one thing that I still don't understand is why Voldemort didn't already die in the forest. At that point Harry was already the true master of the Elder Wand (he was since he disarmed Draco, right?). Shouldn't have Voldemort's curse reflected on himself like it later did in the Great Hall? The allegiance of the Elder Wand was the reason Voldemort finally died, so why wasn't that true in the forest? Just because Harry didn't defend himself?
Thanks to anybody for any clarification on that.
Harry didn't open the snitch until after he had made the decision to go to the forest. Does that mean he was the "owner" all along just for having it even though he didn't now he had it, just like he was the "master" of a wand that he himself didn't take from its current master?
I don't know. In my opinion, having the ability to face death is radically different from having control over death.
This is yet what I find aggravating about all of the Harry Potter books - they leave a lot to the reader to fill in, and there doesn't seem to be any concrete answers. In many cases, you're left with Dumbledore explaining everything at the end, and my reaction to that has wholly been, "Oh. Well, ok."
It's almost like Scooby-Doo -- they have some ghost haunting a place, they go and get chased around, and then finally they catch the guy in the ghost costume. Only after he's caught do they try to give him some motivation for scaring everyone with the ghost outfit. I get the same impression from a lot of what goes on in Harry Potter. Sure, it makes sense when it's explained, but it strains even fictive credulity when the explanation is this far-fetched.
...Harry didn't open the snitch until after he had made the decisionm to go to the forest. Does that mean he was the "owner" all along just for having it even though he didn't now he had it, just like he was the "master" of a wand that he himself didn't take from its current master?...
Well, Harry had only just thought of how to open the Snitch, bye affiriming what he had decided to do already - Go be killed by Voldermort. "I'm about to die" and "I open at the close" are pretty explanitory but only when put into context together. But I agree with you, it's like Scooby-Doo in which there's the action then the reason. "Shoot first then ask questions" comes to mind writing this comment.
I think you're getting hung up on the title of the book, Owen. The titular items in many of the other books were important plot elements, but not necessarily central to the book as a whole. Consider the Goblet of Fire, the Order of the Phoenix, and the Half-Blood Prince: they were title elements, but ultimately not the central focus of any of their own books.
So joining the Hallows -- indeed even owning them all at the same time -- was something of a red herring. Harry made his choice to focus on the horcruxes in order to defeat Voldemort, and this was the correct choice to make.
Xeno Lovegood claims that the possessor of the Hallows will be the conqueror of death. But that claim is never made in The Tales of Beedle the Bard. Indeed, in Beedle, the possessor of the invisibility cloak is the only one who dies a natural, happy death. I chose to read the story that Harry's relinquishing of the other Hallows aligned him with the Third Brother from the story: destined for a natural death.
One could argue that Lovegood was off his rocker with respect to his interpretation of Beedle: he was so far out of whack with his other pursuits that his comments about "master of death" can quite easily be dismissed.
Finally, you said "In my opinion, having the ability to face death is radically different from having control over death." There's some allusion to this disparity in the graveyard at Godric's Hollow. The inscription on the Potters' tombstone (p. 328) can be interpreted as a Death Eater epitaph, or as something positive. Likewise, the moral of the Three Brothers and their Hallows can be interpreted in either way.
As for the wand: it's important to remember what Ollivander says: The wand chooses the wizard. I agree it's somewhat of a deus ex machina device, but physical possession of the Elder Wand is not a critical component of who the wand considers its owner.
What about the whimpering child in the King's Cross station scene? It is referred to several times, yet never explained. Is it the Horcrux part of Harry that was destroyed by Voldemort?
Why is it also in the Way Station? Does that mean it, like Harry, has the choice to pass on or return?
With respect to the fight sequences:
1) I think some of the confusion can be attributed to the fact that even though much of the story is told third-person omniscient, it's still mostly narrated from Harry's point of view. So any confusion in a fight is likely Harry's own perceptions of the events in that fight. That's how I read Hagrid's capture: he was overrun by spiders, and lost from view. It's left to speculation as to whether he was killed or carried away, since Harry had no way of knowing.
2) Why didn't Harry die? I think this is intentionally left to personal interpretation. Maybe it was a lame conceit on Rowling's part, in order to ensure discussion of her book; maybe she didn't want to commit to something specific and upset some (possibly sizable) portion of her readers. Speaking only for myself, I choose to interpret the events of the first fight in the forest as such: Harry willingly walked to his death, defenseless, in order to protect those he loved who were still alive, as well as to honor those he loved who had already fallen. Voldemort, selfish to the extreme, would never have willingly done anything of the sort. So here again we have the theme of love triumphing over evil.
Moreover, when Voldemort attacked, he destroyed the horcrux that was Harry, but not Harry himself. I chose to read the conversation at King's Cross with Dumbledore as "all in Harry's head" -- whether as a result of pre-planted charms, or the influence of Albus' spirit, or something more mundane like a near-death experience -- and that Harry's choice to live or die was whether to get back up, or to give up. Harry chose to get back up, and to continue living.
With all of the horcrux's destroyed, the only thing keeping Voldemort alive was the power of Lily's protective charm on Harry, a portion of which had been transferred to Voldemort when he drank Harry's blood. This was a positive enchantment, which Voldemort tried to subvert for his own selfish purposes. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work: Harry was willing to lay down his life, as his parents had done, but Voldemort was not. So when Voldemort's spell was deflected back to himself, the Killing Curse was effective against Voldemort's rotten core, slipping past the positive influence of Harry's parents' magic.
That's solely my opinion. I'm interested in hearing your's.
Thinking things through, one of my biggest complaints is Neville Longbottom pulling the Sword of Gryffindor from the Sorting Hat. The Sword had been reclaimed by the goblin Griphook after the infiltration of Gringott's bank. There was some discussion of the different ways that wizards and goblins view "ownership", but I'm still surprised that the Sorting Hat could have procured the Sword from Griphook.
Taken from Chapter 33 - The Prince's Tale
And now Snape stood again in the headmaster’s study as Phineas Nigellus
came hurrying into his portrait.
“Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood—”
“Do not use that word!”
“—the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I
heard her!”
“Good. Very good!” cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster’s
chair. “Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken
under conditions of need and valor—and he must not know that you give it! If
Voldemort should read Harry’s mind and see you acting for him—”
Katie B: Why was kings cross the place harry went to when he died
J.K. Rowling: For many reasons. The name works rather well, and it has been established in the books as the gateway between two worlds, and Harry would associate it with moving on between two worlds (don't forget that it is Harry's image we see, not necessarily
J.K. Rowling: what is really there.
--taken from the transcript JK Rowling's live web chat on Bloomsbury's official website. So I guess, taking it from JKR, the King Cross limbo happened in Harry's mind.
The patronus was a doe not a dove. FYI.
In Chapter 33, The Prince's Tale
And now Snape stood again in the headmaster’s study as Phineas Nigellus
came hurrying into his portrait.
“Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood—”
“Do not use that word!”
“—the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I
heard her!”
“Good. Very good!” cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster’s
chair. “Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken
under conditions of need and valor—and he must not know that you give it! If
Voldemort should read Harry’s mind and see you acting for him—”
My speculation why Harry was not killed and only his connection to Voldemort was severed is based on what many of you have mentioned... the Elder Wand will not harm Harry, but will only kill the portion of Voldemort in him. This seems logical because the later spells Voldemort had cast on Harry also did not harm him.
Although all of these points are valid, is it not possible that the answer is much more simple? After mulling over the ending, is it not possible that since harry essentially owned all three hallows (and thus the master of death) that when he was killed he had the choice to either die or come back to life. This interpretation would mean that King's Cross is between the two worlds where harry could choose life or death.
I would love to hear some opinions about this.
also, what about the dying baby at King's Cross?
What is the deal with the small naked child in Kings Cross Station? D'dore never explains who it is but just that Harry cannot help it. Maybe I missed something but who does this represent? I think it may be the part of Voldemort's soul inside Harry, which may further support Skippy's comments about it being all in Harry's head. The small child could maybe be the soul which was part of Harry from a child, or maybe that is what may have become of Harry if Voldemort had of killed Harry that night long ago! Overall I loved the book. I am smitten for Hermione!!!
The biggest sticking point for me as well is the procurement of the Sword of Gryffindor from the sorting hat. I had to read that part again to be sure that he pulled it out of the hat. I just kept thinking 'did the Goblins show up to fight Voldemort and hand that sword back over?' It doesn't say that it is the Sword of Gryffindor when Neville actually cuts off the head of Nagini, just that it is a glint of metal with a rubied hilt, but later we see the sword lying on the table next to Neville and the sword is referred to as the Sword of Gryffindor.
The other thing that bothers me is that Harry became the owner of the Elder Wand simply by disarming Draco of his own wand. To me, that means that Harry's postulation of 'if I die a natural death then the wand will have no owner' doesn't hold water. I would assume that anyone who disarms Harry of his own wand would then become the owner of the Elder Wand, and you have to assume that someone would be able to disarm Harry at some point, like when he is teaching other people, or his children, how to cast the disarming spell.
I completely agree with Skippy's interpretation of the the whole battle in the woods with Voldemort and King's Cross Station sequence. I would like to point out the rather overt religious overtones of the whole situation where Harry 'dies' for his friends and that procured their 'salvation' from the evil-doer Voldemor, thereby explaining the fact that Voldemort was powerless to effect them directly with any spells.
In response to Gregory, I would have to say that Harry did not just disarm Draco. I believe that Harry actually defeated Draco by stealing his wand. Remeber that the Elder Wand doesn't have to be taken at the death of the previous owner noting the fact that Dumbledore procured it from Grindelwald by defeating him and not killing him. Therefore when Harry defeated Draco, by taking his wand in "battle" Harry also takes ownership of the Elder Wand.
Now to continue with my train of thought, there is no way Dumbledore would have known that Harry was going to defeat Draco at some point and therefore become the owner of the Elder Wand. All he was expecting was that Voldemort would expect that becuase Snape "killed" Dumbledore then the only way to gain control of the wand would be to kill Snape. You have to remember that Dumbledore knew Voldemort it seems better than Voldemort knew himself. Taking all that into consideration there is no way Dumbledore expected Harry to take control of the Elder Wand and therefore knew that Harry could survive the killing curse from Voldemort whether or not Voldemort or Harry had the wand.
With all that said, I believe that Harry did not die in the Forbidden Forest because Voldemort was just killing part of Harry, the part that connected their souls. In King's Cross, the in between life and death state Harry was in, Harry did not have his scar, the physical marking of his connection with Voldemort.
As regards to Neville pulling the sword out of the sorting hat, I believe he can do it just as Harry did so in the Chamber of Secrets. No matter what the goblins think of ownership that sword belongs to Gryffindor, and any true Gryffindor to follow. Neville was acting as Gryffindor would have and therefore was able to pull it out of the sorting hat.
This is all just speculation and I dont mean to criticize any other points. I beleive that all of the points stated are valid. Books are great because they leave a lot up to the speculation of the reader. Have fun. Im in the process of rereading the whole series from start to finish.
I think skippy has it right concerning the wand. Ollivander says the wand chooses the wizard and that is the most important thing about changing ownership. Concerning the other things such as winning it, Ollivander becomes wishy-washy with terms like "usually", "sometimes". Dumbledore was the true owner until he died. He owned it even before he dueled and defeated Grindelwald. Remember, Grindelwald told Voldemort that he wasted his time - he never had it! Dumbledore knew the wand would never choose Voldemort and would choose Harry instead. That's why he left his tomb (and the wand!) without any real protection - so Voldemort would get it and try to use it on Harry and have it backfire.
Thank you for the explanation, because I re-read these pages at least 5 times and still couldn't figure it out. I finally e-mailed my teen-aged nephew to get him to explain it to me. I await his response. Thanks also for the guffaw I got on your brilliant "To blave" reference. One of my all-time favorite movies!!!
How did Harry think that he would be able to defeat Voldemort by sacrificing himself? Even if he thought that Voldemort would die from trying to kill harry there was still the snake containing a bit of Voldemort's soul..
What happened to the bottle with the liquid coming out of Snape when he was dying?
I remember reading that J.K. Rowling said that she changed the original ending in the wee hours. I would love to read her original ending. I could feel a switch of writer's heart somewhere around the time that Harry entered the Forbidden Forest, or maybe even before then, when the final fighting began. The ending just doesn't ring true to me.
Why doesnt harry talk to the portrait of dubledoor when he first gets to hogwarts? and also y doesnt ginny, or neville, etc talk to dumbledoor either for instruction. Harry could have asked for his advice after he gets out of the room of requirement to look for the diadem
I have a question on the book: How did Snape know where to find Harry and Hermione on the forest when he left the sword and produced the dove patronus? This bit seems to be unclear to me. As for the King Cross limbo, I guess is up to the imagination of the reader on where was Harry exactly at this point. Thanks.
Filip: In that case, Voldemort would have been reduced as he was before, 17 years ago, and the only thing that Ron/Hermione/Neville would have to do was kill the snake to finish him completely.
Not easy, but probably a lot easier than killing Voldemort himself.
The liquid was Snape's memory. Harry used the Pensieve to view it.
Luke: if you're dishing someone's spelling, you'd better be sure yourself... it's Avada Kedavra, not Kadavra.
About King's Cross: I hated that piece when I read it first - DD again to explain everything? But the last words of that chapter put it in perspective: "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
I think that in the limbo state it was just the mind of Harry fitting every piece of information together, maybe a state of heightened awareness or something. But Harry, [and the reader], need to understand at normal level, so it's translated into symbols. King's Cross is a good symbol of the neither-here-nor-there state he's in, and has the possibility of choosing your path [train].
I think Dumbledore isn't really there, but he symbolizes the jumps in understanding Harry is making. DD doesn't tell Harry anything really new in that chapter; Harry has all the information to put the puzzle together. DD represents this understanding.
As for the whimpering creature... it reminded me very much of the body Voldemort built for himself with the help of Wormtail in GoF.
I think the creature wasn't the horcrux that had been part of Harry, that was gone, symbolized by the disappearance of the scar. It was destroyed by the AK curse.
I think the creature was Voldemort himself, in limbo with Harry, but with none of his self-control. It fits the fact that if V would have died there, he would have been non-alive again, only dependent on his last horcrux, the snake.
When Harry "wakes up", so does Voldemort - it looks as if he went down too.
Harry himself identifies it as Voldemort, when he sais to V to try for some remorse - "...it's all you've got left... I've seen what you'll be otherwise..."
Why remorse would help him, I don't know, BTW.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if Harry had chosen to "go on" at KC... would he have taken Voldemort [the creature] with him?
thats a good question but i think maybe phinius black may have figured out where they were and told snape thats pure speculation but thats a very good ? esteban
i know that! but listen to this text taken from the book, taken from p.595:
"Avada Kedavra!"
"Expelliarmus!"
The bang was like a cannon blast and the golden flames that erupted between them, at the dead centre of the cicle they had been treading, MARKED THE POINT WHERE THE SPELLS COLLIDED."
That means, then, that harry's expelliarmus could never have hit voldermourt, meaning that the wand should never have flown to harry!!!!!
To quote HP4, Chapter 34 - Priori Incantatem, "He knew he was facing the thing against which Moody had always warned . . . the unblockable Avada Kedavra curse..."
I hope we can agree that Expelliarmus is a disarming spell and it can not defeat the UNBLOCKABLE Avada Kedavra curse. All Expelliarmus can do is to disarm the opponent before he casts the killing curse.
In HP4, at the graveyard, Harry's Expelliarmus collided with Voldemort's killing curse because of the Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect. Both wands share cores, because the feather in both wands came from the tail of the same phoenix, fawkes.
In HP7, I think when the spells collided, the elder wand recognized that the expelliarmus came from the wand that diarmed it's previous master (draco's wand disarming dumbledore). So, the killing curse went back and hit Voldemort (which killed him) and the expelliarmus also hit him that's why the wand flew to Harry. I hope I answered your question Fry.
i think the whimpering child at King's Cross is Voldemort in the limbo.. remember when he shot the Killing Curse at Harry in the forest?? when Harry woke up Voldemort was also lying on the ground (and was uncounscious too, by the look of it)... wich means, in my point of view, that the Killing Curse affected both of them (because Harry was a Horcrux
AND because of Harry's blood still being in Voldemort)... so they were both sent to the limbo... but Harry, accepting his own death, was a whole man... whereas Voldemort was so afraid of death, that he went to limbo in the form of a frightened child... and Harry not choosing death (and Voldemort obviuously not doing so either) returned to the real world, and at the same time so did Voldemort
yo, can somebody tell me why voldemort wasn't just looking in harry's head during the entire 7th book to figure out where he was?
thanks very much!
In Chapter 33 - The Prince's Tale:
Harry, not being able to learn occlumency have learned how to deal with the pain of the connection between his and Voldemort's mind. The Dark Lord on the other hand did not learn to bear the pain because he uses occlumency to block the connection and stop the intense pain.
In Chapter 33 - The Prince's Tale:
Harry, not being able to learn occlumency have learned how to deal with the pain of the connection between his and Voldemort's mind. The Dark Lord on the other hand did not learn to bear the pain because he uses occlumency to block the connection and stop the intense pain.
Possible answer: Ted would be 19 years old by now and be graduated from Hogwarts. Victoire is probably in her last year (since the kids are hoping they will marry.)
Does anyone know who's watch Harry was wearing at the end of the book? And did anyone get the impression that Ted didnt attend Hogwarts?
who is the guy in picture of the chapter titled "the lost diadem"? is it mad eye?? cause that's who it looks like but i don't recall him coming up in the chapter anywhere.
Tha watch of Fabian Prewet is the watch that Molly and Arthur Weasley gave Harry when he turned 17. Fabian was Molly's brother, member of the Order of the Phoenix, who was killed by Death Eaters.
The guy in the picture of the chapter "The Lost Diadem" is Neville Longbottom.