I had this political discussion with Brian via IM last October. I wonder how much (if at all) his position has changed. I thought it was interesting and thought-provoking enough to repost here, and I suspect that some readers might have reasonable comments.
Brian: 1) what was the buffy website addy and 2) we really need to debate us some politics.
Owen: Huh?
Brian (quoting my site): This really isn’t new, most people who read this site probably know this. But the new news is that experts on the intelligence gathered in Iraq have now said that while they watched Powell give his case for war to the UN, he must have knowingly liedr [Link].
I don’t really find this stuff shocking any more. I’m just anxious to get Bush out of the White House. Put in a Democrat for all I care, just get the faith-based senile war-mongering out of my government, and give me back my $87 billion.
Owen: Oh, I thought that was in relation to the buffy stuff.
Brian: nah.. two different topics.
Owen: What did you want to say in regard to the Bush garbage I posted this morning?
Brian: That I’m ready and willing to go to bat for him, for his administration, for the case for the war, etc, systematically disprove idiots like the former aid to Powell who spouted that crap, and demonstrate the validity of the case.
Owen: Ugh.
Brian: indeed.
Owen: I can’t even start… What… How… Why? Just make a point or something.
Brian: Okay.
Brian: September 12th, 2001.
Owen: What happened on that day?
Brian: Day after September 11, 2001.
Owen: Yeah, continue…
Brian: If I asked you on that day if you thought we would make it to October 16, 2003, with no attacks on U.S. citizens on U.S. soil, what do you think you would have said?
Owen: Well, I know that I wouldn’t have said, “Let’s beat up on Iraq to make sure that doesn’t happen.”
Brian: Okay, acknowledged. But do you think you would have said we would make it this long without being attacked?
Owen: I would have said, “I really don’t know. I wasn’t expecting what happened yesterday, either.”
Brian: Fair enough. Most people said, that day, that they did expect another major attack in the next two years.
Owen: If he was doing his job to begin with, there probably shouldn’t have been the original attack, nes pas?
Owen: But assuming that he is responsible for keeping the country terrorist-event-free, what exactly has he done that has caused this to happen?
Brian: So, my 1 point is that by taking the battle to somone who was absolutely known to fund and support terrorists (even if you deny the proven al-Queda links, he publicly supported Hammes et. al. in fighting Isreal) and who is guilty of the most heinous human rights abuses, we have liberated a large chunk of humanity, and taken the war away from our nation.
Owen: Our job as Americans is now to beat up on religious fanatics half way across the world? Please, no.
Brian: So, no.
Brian: The
Brian: The President’s job is to remove likely threats to the security of the nation from abroad.
Brian: I’d say he succeeded admirably.
Owen: Yes, blowing everyone else up, regardless of their hostile intent or capability, will succfully eliminate external threats.
Brian: Yes. And if we blow up the individuals with explicitly stated and demonstrated hostile intent,t hen we’re doing one better.
Owen: When was the last time the US made a preemptive attack?
Owen: On a country that could not directly harm us?
Brian: Preemptive? What was preemptive about it?
Brian: And I don’t mean 9/11
Owen: If we know so much about the funding that Iraq had done, why didn’t we target the terrorists rather than the lame government that funded them?
Brian: I mean the last gulf war.
Owen: There are no ties between 9/11 and Iraq. None.
Brian: Because many of the places that funnel terroristic funding to the US do so under the cover of civil rights organizations.
Brian: So, yes, there was.
Brian: But, as I said, I didn’t mean 9/11 regarding the preemption.
Brian: I mean the temporary cease fire in 1991.
Brian: On the provision that they disarm.
Brian: They didn’t.
Brian: We finished the job.
Owen: Disarm what?
Owen: What did we finish?
Owen: There were no weapons found.
Brian: the 1991 war to shut down and aggressive, totalitarian dictator in response for his demonstrated plans of conquest.
Brian: Incorrect.
Owen: Those that were found were non-functional and forgotten by their government.
Brian: To this point, no large stashes produced bio toxins or nuclear weapons have been found.
Brian: Incorrect.
Owen: Prove it.
Brian: The Kay report lists dozens of material breaches.
Brian: okay!
Brian: Link
Owen: Ok, their first point… only 10 of 130 depots were searched by them. What of the UN inspectors that had searched and found nothing?
Brian: So, there are no conservatives in Austin. I am armed to the death with triple redundant research from a dozen disparate sources to back this shit up.
Brian: Shall I pull up the interviews with Iraqis detailing how the UN was systematicly lied to?
Owen: You can’t in one breath say they are the enemy and the next say that they’re the ones providing the evidence.
Brian: Or how about the latest independent (Zogby and Gallup) polls indicating that despite massive anti-american propaganda, 73% of Iraqi citizens are glad we’re there, and want us to stay?
Brian: …
Brian: The Iraqi citizenry was never the enemy.
Brian: Only the regime.
Owen: Polls done by an agency in a country that has what kind of infrastructure? These people hardly have TV, and what they do have is spotty and propagandized. Of COURSE people who are able to talk to Americans will like americans.
Brian: …
Brian: …
Brian: HAve you seen any of the recent blogs from Iraqi citizens?
Brian: They have tv, over a dozen free newspapers, radio, power, cars…
Owen: Of COURSE Iraqis with computers are going to be progressive…
Brian: Dude, downtown Baghdad is in better shape than most of Jersey.
Brian: (granted, that’s not saying much)
Owen: Do some polling in the rural areas… Where it’s not possible for gallop to get to.
Owen: Do you think that the people with guns fighting our soldiers are hanging out near phones waiting to be called by US papers for interviews?
Brian: No… because they’re from Syria.
Brian: Or Lebanon.
Brian: Or Palestine.
Owen: And… to back up a second…
Brian: yes?
Brian: (p.s. those polls were door to door, by hand… not phone)
Owen: You’re just illustrating my point that I would rather have my share of the $87b spent to rejuvinate Jersey than buy overpriced bids on Iraqi oil refinery construction.
Brian: And I would counter that, long term, the rebuilding of Germany and Japan generated vastly more revenue than it cost, over the long run.
Brian: That by investing in the generation of a first world country from a third world country, we can get those oil contracts, and hire lots and lots of Americans to work with Iraqis.
Owen: Germany and Japan were efficient producers of goods we consumed before that war. Iraq has nothing but oil to benefit us, and it’s already been said by our administration that that money will be used by Iraq to rebuild.
Brian: Not Japan. Japan made nothing before WW2
Owen: Japan is also not a dustbowl.
Brian: The cost of rebuilding is less than the oil revenue.
Brian: neither is Iraq.
Brian: check out some geomaps, especially of the north.
Brian: Besides…. it doens’t need to produce anything but oil to get wealthy.
Owen: CIA factbook: “Mostly desert…mostly broad plains”
Brian: Two words: Tigris and Euphrates.
Brian: More than enough fresh water to support one of the first and largest cities in the world (pre modern era)
Owen: Contingent on agreements with Turkey regarding its development.
Brian: Technically, California is mostly desert.
Owen: California also seems mostly unrecoverable…
Brian: Heh.. I’ll agree with you on that one… though hopefully Arnold will stick to his 100 day plan and pull them out of nose dive.
Owen:
Brian: Bottom line, dude: Iraq is being rebuilt, the economy is unquestionably back on an upswing, and no terrorist attacks on US soil.
Brian: Bush is doing a good job.
Brian: (and I can defend the Patriot act too)
Brian: (since I, y’know, read it.)
Owen: Only at the cost of the largest deficit ever (if you don’t take into account inflation), and the potential loss of a large number of our civil liberties.
Brian: 1) Deficit spending helps the economy (c.f. Reagan) and 2) Name one civil liberty lost by the Patriot Act.
Brian: Any one.
Brian: I’ll wait.
Owen: Did I say Patriot Act?
Owen: TIA.
Brian: Ah.. that.
Brian: So, okay, that is a morally questionable thing.
Brian: It’s also dead.
Owen: Yeah, ok. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Brian: Besides, it’s only a violation of civil liberties if the Constitution defined a “right to Privacy”
Brian: It doesn’t.
Brian: It was invented by the Supreme Court to satisfy Row v. Wade.
Owen: Er… the possibility of being carted away and imprisoned indefinately for maybe being fingered by a pissed off neightbor as a terrorist seems to infringe on my rights somehow.
Brian: damn.. that would be scary.
Brian: Of course, it has no basis in reality.
Brian: Here we go, from the top:
Brian: 1) the Patriot act only applies to non citizens and “enemy combatants”
Brian: 2) a citizen can only become and “enemy combatant” if declared as such by John Ashcroft.
Brian: One man, known, recognized, acountable.
Brian: 3) the declaration of “enemy combatant” must be upheld by judicial review
Brian: (Well, not necessarily Ashcroft… just whoever happens to be Attorney General)
Brian: 4) Creeping abuse of the PA is rendered highly unlikely, because it has a sunset clause… it autmatically ceases to exist unless explicitly voted to continue to exist by Congress.
Brian: Who are known and accountable.
Brian: Since I’m of the opinon that somone whom can be proven to have real intent and the capacity to blow up buildings ought to be able to be arrested and interrogated, I believe there ought to be a way to do so, and that way ought to have checks and balances.
Brian: Like as outlined by the Patriot Act.
Owen: There were ways to do this before the Patriot Act, though, weren’t there?
Brian: There were. And that’s the whole point. The Patriot act did less to expand the powers as to codify the techniques already being used and methods of inter agency cooperation.
Brian: The only real expansion of powers was in regards to non citizens.
Owen: The effect, though, has exceeded what you define as the intent, true or not.
Brian: Now with all that being said: no bill is perfect, and there are places where tyranical, evil, or stupid men could abuse it. All legislation has that inherrant. Regarding that… see the sunset clause.
Owen: Provided it is not amplified with a revival of Patriot 2…
Owen: Why did we wait 10 years to enforce the ceasefire? I assume Clinton was just being lazy and having his cigar toked.
Owen: The most damning thing to give incentive for the war was to specify that there were WMDs in Iraq. If we were so sure that they existed, shouldn’t we know at least where first to look for them?
Owen: Aren’t we still in danger until they are found?
Brian: one sec
Brian: patriot 2, in the form last leaked to the public, was also only applicable to enemy combatants and non citizens
Brian: we waited because the UN kept saying “you have one more chance” every two years"
Owen: Where exactly is this specified in the original, because I can’t find it.
Owen: So why did we suddenly flip and say “We’re doing this now”?
Brian: it isn’t explicitly stated anywhere, because the whole thing is just a series of deltas to existing laws.
Brian: Because it became necessary
Owen: So to what law does it apply that I can reference that says this magic only works on non-citizens and combatants?
Brian: The reason to go into Iraq right now (last year) was becasue we knew he was pursuing and suspected he had illegal weapons.
Brian: We’ve confirmed acquisition programs and discovered seed programs.
Brian: Are we still in danger? yes, albeit much less.
Owen: And we’ve found the evidence of those weapons?
Owen: The ones for which we suddenly went to war?
Brian: yes: refer to the link I sent you.
Owen: Illegal weapons? I don’t recall your link referring to weapons that break any UN agreement. I’ll reread it.
Brian: there is also this: Link but that’s speculation, not proof.
Brian: (albeit fairly believable speculation with evidence to lend it credence)
Owen: After re-read, there is no mention that the found ordinance was not in compliance with UN restrictions.
Brian: Link
Owen: Legal ordinance under UN restrictions even included, IIRC, scub missles with limited range.
Brian: half way down
Brian: though the whole article is quite telling.
Owen: Neat. Let’s not give in to the “Leftist Lie Factory”. This is obviously unbiased reporting. Cite another source.
Owen: How can I take seriously a publication that has “New leftist cheers on baby-killer” on it’s home page. HA!
Brian:
Brian: Do you know who David Horowitz is?
Owen: He didn’t write that article.
Brian: …
Brian: in no particular order: ignoring the obvious counter bias in the article I sent you, what are the facts (as oppsed to opinions) that it outlines?
Brian: 2) regarding the David Horowitz headline, the one about the baby killer… do you know who he is?
Owen: He’s a rights activist.
Brian: Link
Owen: That’s what I’ve been looking for…
Brian: Yes. He is one of the most irrefutable commentators on the right, because he used to be the most erudite commentator on the left.
Owen: Since I do not know this man, I can only say that I don’t value the summaries as written by his cohorts as much as I would this CNN article with Kay’s own words.
Owen: “We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone. "
Brian: Understood… though, point of clarification: he doesn’t run the site, he’s simply the local star commentator. the authors of the articles, compiled from many publications, write the blurbs.
Brian: that comment has to do with stocks of undeclared bio weapons.
Brian: It doesn’t cover declared and found bioweapons or the resources, materials, and fascilities to generate bioweapons.
Owen: He’s the editor of the site, actually.
Brian: Yes.
Brian: I’m not sure if he personally picks the articles that go up
Owen: I give up. You win. I pledge my allegiance to our president. I’ll vote for him next year. I don’t want to think about this any more. I have enough problems without trying to figure out when Iraqi planes are going to fall from the sky with water balloons filled with anthrax.
Brian: heh heh heh.
Brian: How about an acknowledgment that it’s not as simply as “Bush is evil” and “Invading Iraq was just a ploy for him and his friends to get rich”, and we’ll let it lie there. (for now)
Brian: Besides, I’m only making these comments because you made public comments on your site, hmm?
Owen: That’s not even what I’m saying. That’s not even what upsets me.
Owen: And it wasn’t even… I was just summing up the article that I read in a snarky way…
Brian: Well, your calling him a warmonger, and the “anybody but Bush” feel is what set me off.
Owen: Yes, I do feel that way, but the results are not those you point to.
Brian: The results
Brian: ?
Brian: (see what snarkyness gets you?)
Owen: to get him and his friends rich.
Brian: Ah… the whole “faith” thing?
Owen: I think that regardless of whether the war was warranted, we had a lot of internal problems that he could have addressed while still managing the terror issue (in a way better than I perceive it to have been handled, however correct/incorrect).
Owen: I don’t even have a problem with faith. Have faith. Whatever. It’s just mildly offensive that it’s always God that dictates his actions rather than solely the American people, who have faiths of their own.
Brian: Ah. Now that’s an argument that I can respect.
Brian: Since we all know the dangers of religious zeal and fundamentalism.
Owen: I would rather have one of these than a peaceful Iraq: Working schools, working healthcare, low-unemployment/healthy economy…
Brian: Link
Owen: And a peacful Iraq is certainly not going to increase the interest rate on government bonds, help pay for my kid’s education, or pay the high monthly costs of Nana’s prescriptions.
Brian: Link
Owen: And this is after how many years?
Brian: 2 years since the tech stock market collapse. One of the shortest and mildest recessions in history.
Brian: Now, as to education…
Brian:
Owen: And we’re inclined to credit Bush with this return?
Owen: It’s all due to the refund checks, I guess.
Brian: I am, yes. I believe that stability at home and lower taxes are a significant contribution.
Owen: Have your taxes dropped?
Brian: I believe so. I don’t really make enough to pay taxes.
Brian: But I really really want rich people to pay very little tax so they’ll invest in me and my company.
Owen: Yeah, well, good for you. My taxes look fantastic this year.
Owen: I can be the overtaxed middle class.
Brian: Are they less that 4 years ago?
Brian: …
Brian: Well, Bush wanted to cut taxes a lot more, but the dems wouldn’t let him… remember?
Owen: Remember that I’m not on the side of democrats - at all.
Brian: Understood.
Owen: Nor because I want things that democrats seem to want does that mean I want them implemented in the same ways.
Brian: I’m simply pointing that if you want to target someone responsible for you being overtaxed, Bush is not the best candidate available.
Owen: Yes, I clearly need to make less money or more money to avoid being taxed. It’s my own fault.
Owen: And I shouldn’t have gotten married, because that didn’t help my taxes at all.
Brian: heh heh heh… or get more representatives elected who run on “lower your taxes” platforms.
Brian: Which are some republicans and almost no dems.
Owen: I wouldn’t even mind all the taxes if the money was going places that made me happy. Like, not Iraq.
Brian: It is, I think, a perfectly valid (albeit IMHO dangerous) position to believe that 9/11 was a completely isolated incident, that Saddam Hussein and his ilk did not contribute to it and events like it, and we would have been better off not toppling his regime and concentrating instead on domestic issues.
Brian: hmm.. rephrase…. that however much they did or did not contribute to it, the risk of another attack is less than the magnitude of existing domestic problems.
Brian: yes, that phrasing is better.
Brian: and, by the way, I’m in complete agreement that the education system is in shambles, I wish it would become a major target for reform, and by reform I mean drag the leaders of theNEA out of their offices and light them on fire.
Owen: There is no doubt that Hussein is evil, and he should have been removed from power and the Iraqi people freed to discover their own government. Just not at our sole expense, and not without immediate, undeniable results.
Owen: The NEA?
Brian: National Education Association
Owen: Ok. I thought National Endowment for the Arts. But yes, ok.
Brian: Does no incidents of domestic terrorism count as immediate, undeniable results?
Owen: No.
Brian: Ah.
Brian: can’t prove a negative, eh?
Brian: (them too)
Owen: Because I don’t believe that attackig Iraq resulted in no domestic terrorism.
Brian:
Brian: (conceede?)
Owen: No e.
Brian: right.
Owen: concede.
Brian: ah
Owen: But if he bought back WMDs, THEN I would say, ok, George, you da man. The problem for me is that we should have known where to look before we went knocking around over there.
Brian: well, we kinda did. We knew the location of lots of weapon depots. And we found lots and lots of weapons… just no stockpiles of chemical death.
Owen: Oops. Darn.
Brian: We did find seed cultures and the equipment and documentation to rapidly produce vast quantities.
Brian: but no stockpiles.
Brian: yet.
Owen: When I spend $100, I don’t want to say “Oops. Darn.” This is not $100.
Brian: I suppose the theory was “better 100 on a 80% bet than 100000 if we ignore it”
Brian: kinda like insurance.
Brian: which you may or may not believe in.
Owen: I swear to the almighty powers that my brain aches in a way that is reserved only for political debates.
Brian: I’ll stop.
Owen: It’s discussions such as these, where I try to solve the world’s problems and realize that no one can, that cause the need to crawl away somewhere.
Brian: or play make-believe in a universe of our own crafting where evil is killed by pointy sticks?
Owen: I can’t even… I hurt. I want to cry.
Brian: aww…… I’m sorry.
Brian: I like make believe and pointy sticks!
Brian: and death to nasty bad evil!
Owen: Pat is telling me where I can get the job for the guy who takes the pictures for games like Midtown Madness 3.
Brian: cool
Owen: He says it’s competitive.
